Essential Wisdom: Inspiring Future Female Physicians

Carolyn Ho, MD - Cardiology

February 11, 2020 Carrie Dubeau Season 1 Episode 14
Essential Wisdom: Inspiring Future Female Physicians
Carolyn Ho, MD - Cardiology
Show Notes Transcript

Help me welcome, Dr. Carolyn Ho. Dr. Ho is the Medical Director of the Cardiovascular Genetics Center at Brigham and Women’s Hospital in Boston, MA. She is an Associate Physician at Brigham and Women’s Hospital and an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Ho completed her undergraduate education at Yale University, and went on to complete Medical School at Harvard Medical School. She trained in Internal Medicine at Brigham and Women’s Hospital, completing her fellowship in Cardiology/Cardiovascular Disease at Brigham and Women’s Hospital. Her research and clinical interest is in the diagnosis and management of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy (HCM). 

spk_0:   0:00
welcome to essential wisdom. Inspiring future female physicians. Ah, podcast for engaging and informing the next generation of women in medicine. My name is carried a

spk_1:   0:17
bow. I'm 1/4 year medical student at the Frank H. Netter, MD. School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. Essential wisdom is a podcast for discussing the joys and the challenges off being a woman in medicine through the sharing of stories and advice by women who mentor us. Take a seat with me at the desk of the mentors, come along, tow, walk the holes of the hospitals to experience residency and life

spk_0:   0:43
as a physician personally, as we get to know these phenomenal physicians and scientists. Hello,

spk_1:   0:55
everyone, and welcome back to essential wisdom inspiring future female physicians. My name is Carrie Deebo, and I'm so excited that you have decided to join us for another episode of essential wisdom today. Help me welcome Dr Carroll and Ho. Dr. Ho is the medical director of the Cardiovascular Genetic Center at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, Massachusetts. She is an associate physician at Brigham and Women's Hospital and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Ho completed her undergraduate education at Yale University and went on to complete medical school at Harvard Medical School. She trained an internal medicine at Brigham and Women's Hospital, completing her fellowship in cardiology and cardiovascular disease at Brigham and Women's Hospital. Her research and clinical interest is in the diagnosis and management of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. Dr Ho, Welcome to the show. So the way that I like to start with each interview is to ask you to tell us about your path to becoming a female physician.

spk_0:   1:59
You know, honestly, I don't really remember with head and that much. I feel like I wasn't super creative when I was younger, and there weren't a lot of career choices that I could easily envision for myself. And it really fell along the lines of really liking biology in being interested in how that might apply thio improving the human experience and the health of our population. So I think that that's kind of how I started tracking along the lines of something about medicine for a career.

spk_1:   2:32
Was that something that you were interested in at a young age, or did it become a part of your life in college and beyond? It was probably

spk_0:   2:40
growing up. You know, I feel like I'm in high school or maybe even being before high school. Um, you know, that seems like something I would be interested in And that, um but, you know, I wasn't from a family that had any physicians in it, so I really had no idea what it meant to be a physician, or, you know what that life looked like. It was just one of those, um, you know, maybe I'll be a teacher, or maybe I'll be a lawyer. Maybe I'll be a doctor. You know, they're you know, just in some ways, it was just for lack of, of really knowing what else there was. And in the big World, that was possible. But really, you know, I always love science and particularly biology's. I think that, um Why? Why? The gravitational book stuck thio pursue medicine, But certainly I entered into college thinking that I was likely gonna be pursuing medicine.

spk_1:   3:31
Was there somebody that was influential in your choice to do that or to mentor you along that road? Probably not

spk_0:   3:38
before medical school or residency. Um, okay. You know, my father actually is a a staunch basic scientist. He's a biophysicist. And I remember when I told him I was applying to medical school and when I got into Harvard Medical School, you kind of like shrugs and says, You know, I really don't understand why you're gonna waste your time being a healer.

spk_1:   4:00
Oh, my gosh, Oh, my gosh, that's crazy. Did his did his experience as a scientist really influenced your interest in the research science? It did,

spk_0:   4:12
because I love the idea of trying to be the, you know, trying to understand what the big questions are and then trying to figure out how to start to answer them. So, you know, that path of of questioning and discovery has always been something that's been really intriguing to me,

spk_1:   4:28
absolutely. And then, obviously, has made a huge influence on how you've chosen to take your professional career

spk_0:   4:34
exactly. Yeah, that's one of the things that I love most about. My current career is that it's, you know, it's really diverse, and I feel like, you know, I went, um uh, no, necessarily be the best version of myself if I was, you know, just focusing on clinical medicine all the time, and I probably wouldn't be as, um, a Z in touch as a researcher for ice Focus just on research. So having, you know, a little bit of a hand in each camp. You know, I think for me has been really rewarding, really taking care of patients and families and to understand really what they're struggling with and what would be the most impactful and then, you know, tryingto follow up with research that helps get us closer to the goal line of, um, really improving their experience and improving approach to disease.

spk_1:   5:30
Would you mind sharing a little bit about what? Your typical I don't know. Weaker at least day looks like just for people who aren't necessarily as accustomed to understanding that academic setting.

spk_0:   5:41
Yes, I, um you know, I do clinical research based in human populations. There's us, uh, small groups of patients that we really go at in great detail in terms of understanding their genetics and doing lots of different was a imaging, another biomarker testing to try to understand their underlying biology and also working with larger data sets that we have available to us. Now. We may Noto, um, form a really wonderful large collaborative registry. Um, er er patients with H D M that are cared for by other like minded clinical investigators. And now we have thousands of patients with his relatively rare disease that we're able to study to better understand natural history. So I don't have a wet lab or bench laboratory researchers conducted, um, on the computer and on conference calls and, um and, uh, and looking at patients studies on, you know, you break out. My time it's most is about 50 50. Research versus of clinical. Um, so, um you know, and roughly end up being that way during the week. So, half the time I'll be either reading clinical echo studies or seeing patients and, um, my ambulatory cardiovascular Genetics clinic and the other half the time will be trying to keep the ball moving forward with the research.

spk_1:   7:12
Thank you for explaining all that. I think for a lot of people who are anticipating their choices and community or academics are all these different settings, it's hard toe. Imagine what it might look like to actually do that. So that's very helpful,

spk_0:   7:24
you know? And

spk_1:   7:24
I think a lot of it,

spk_0:   7:25
You know, you you know you can forge your own path. It really depends on what type of arrangement you can make with your institution. What you can do to really just cover your salary at a basic level you can, you know, And, um between the clinical revenue that you generate, too in clinical work and some research funding that you that you are able Thio receive?

spk_1:   7:47
Absolutely. When you first began in the cardiovascular genetics world, what did that look like for you? Were you a member of a lab? Or how did that become a part of your practice?

spk_0:   8:00
Yes. So I one of the greatest people in my life has been my mentor. Cricket Seidman Christine Seidman. So, cricket is, um, you know, she and her husband, John or these brilliant, uh, scientists basically found in the field of cardiovascular genetics and cricket is, ah, cardiologists. But she spends most of her time in the basic science research laboratory making all sorts of important discoveries of both of the underlying genetics and biology of hypertrophic cardiomyopathy. And so she's, you know, always been something that has helped to encourage me to be more fearless and to really go after what I was interested in, regardless of what, you know, naysayers, maybe even telling you, um, you know, it may or may not be possible. So, you know, that's, um so you know, her words and her and her enthusiasm and her support and really been a huge influence for mate. And so when I was a senior resident, we actually had were able to carve out six months. That was really pretty well dedicated to research. Um uh, So I was in their lab at that time. Um uh, because I was trying to decide whether I was gonna be a bench research or more of a clinical researcher. My, all my background up until that point had been with, ah, laboratory bench research. But I came to realize that at that point in the late 19 nineties, earlytwo thousands, In order to be a really serious, basic human genetics researcher, you really had to dive into mouse models of disease. Sadly, for me, I am completely phobic of mice or anything. Scurrying rodent and cricket had these grand ideas that I would be the mouse echocardiography for and, you know, um, you know, I do a lot to help fina type on dhe study their house models that I really just couldn't be in the same room as a mouse, a little touch of mouth or kill a mouse. You thinking I like animals,

spk_1:   10:05
but meeting terrible to have to, um,

spk_0:   10:09
so at that point, you know, um, you know, throughout fellowship, But, you know, I started to pivot more towards clinical research.

spk_1:   10:17
That's really interesting. I didn't know any of that. So I love to hear that story and understand a little bit more of that. The path to how you hone in on, like, one research interest has always amazed me off

spk_0:   10:32
course. They're all these great things that you can do with I. P s cells and all that Doesn't that doesn't know involve touching a mouse.

spk_1:   10:41
That's true. You have

spk_0:   10:42
to, like, follow what's available at the

spk_1:   10:44
time. Yeah, and that's something that makes the experience of choosing research. Also, I feel so interesting, because as we adopt all the new technologies we have like, Oh, my gosh. How much is it gonna change even over the next 10 years?

spk_0:   10:57
Exactly. You know, just being ready to kind of, you know, uh, keep an open mind. Thio, you know, redirect a CZ necessary thing is one of the key things. Thio being a successful investigator,

spk_1:   11:10
absolutely, and so cool that cricket was also a female mentor to you at the time. I'd be curious to hear how many experiences you've had with the moment toward versus male mentors and how that's looked as a part of your training. Yeah, So cricket has

spk_0:   11:24
been my main, Um, uh, academic mentor, I would say. And, um you know, and it's been really great because, you know, I think watching her navigate, you know, what is really still a a male dominated field has been really instructive to me in terms of trying to figure out how to, um, work the dynamics, um and, um, you know, into interact with with other call. It's, um you know, she's also incredibly poised and eloquent speaker and ah, writer and s. So all of that has just been incredibly helpful, and, you know, and she really is fearless, you know? She goes after what she thinks it's important. Uh, and, um um, despite you know what seemed to be like a fairly substantial obstacles that has also I am not I think, naturally a fearless person. I tend to be a kind of timid and conservative. So, you know, having somebody kind of saying that in my ear, over and over again, I think it is really helpful. In fact, the first time I met Rick, it was when I was still in medical school. Um uh, they have this really interesting, um uh, curriculum during our genetics block for people that had a major in biology or genetics or biochemistry in college, it was already had, like, the basics under their belt. They kind of reached around to the Harvard community. And it's spreading all the luminaries of of human genetics at the time to give lectures on it. So was amazing. Intricate was one of those letters. I remember her telling us know exactly that. You know, you just have todo follow your goals of all your interest. People were telling her that she shouldn't go into cardiology because she was a woman. And she shouldn't try to be a basic scientist and cardiology. And, um and she just really encouraged us to, uh, you know, really, Um understand what we you know what we thought would be most interesting and most fulfilling and then, you know, just trusting that you would be able to blaze a path to that. Come on. I think my other most influential metro. Well, what is, uh, cardiologists at the VA hospital on the West Roxbury be a hospital? Um, Tom Rocco who was just, you know, kind of a tough, no nonsense kind of person. But, you know, just had amazing ability to really, um uh understands, you know, what might be going on with people you know, to, like, help people that were kind of dumb, uh, floundering and, you know, like washing indecision know a group of us that he helped to rescue during the time that I was a fellow and a junior faculty. And he just has just really thoughtful, insightful advice And, you know, in a way to help you sort out, um, all sorts of things they might have been wrestling was And I remember when I was applying for a fellowship and then, you know, when I was a junior resident, I actually thought I wanted to go into on college of that had this really great experience in medical school words of the year doing research in a lab. And my my mentor there was brilliant and charismatic and just fantastic all around. You know, he gave me a great project, and it was this amazing experience. Okay, does it? You know, I'm gonna, um, go into oncology. I'm gonna work with Gary, and we're going to cure leukemia. And that was the plan. Um, and then I did all my oncology blocks and residency, and I really didn't like them. Um, um, but, you know, it was a plan that I was gonna be on oncologist. I met with Tom to ask him to write a letter of recommendation for me, and I told him that planets like, Well, you know, this is going to do I I really kind of hate oncology, but, you know, this was going to do with this is a plan, you know? You know, you know, just stop. Do you hear what you're saying? Like, why on earth would you Are you on worth? Do you think that that would be the right thing to do? Oh, you know, What do you actually like to do when I said I like cardiology is like, Well, why

spk_1:   15:44
Don't you be a corporate apologist? Nothing. Because I saw the plan, you know, and

spk_0:   15:49
you know, And he says, You know, you people always think that you need to have a five year plan or a 10 year plan and, you know, and you know, and somehow it's all gonna work out. And he's like, This is what you d'oh! And we tell me you're faced with a big decision and you try it. You think what would make me happier and you choose that? And if you keep doing that, then you'll probably end up Okay, Um, you know, there are so many barriers in the way to, you know, fully realizing your five year plan, a 10 year plan that, you know, that's just not a, uh, you know, oftentimes a feasible way to go about things. But you know his His advice, as always, is really resonated with name.

spk_1:   16:29
Yeah, I feel like that also echoes the same idea, not being afraid. I mean, it's very like that's a moment where you might feel very fearful to change the plan. That should have been the plan exactly. But of course, you know I have to

spk_0:   16:44
take baby steps and everything. So we ended up deploying in both oncology and

spk_1:   16:48
cardio. Really? Oh, on then At the very end, I dropped oncology. Gosh, how much everything would have been different if you just listen todo oncology in terms of how you wound up being drawn to cardiology than when you talk about some of your interest in cardiology and what you really enjoy about this specialty. Um, I really

spk_0:   17:09
love the physiology in the path of physiology and cardiology because, you know, you you know, the you feel like, you know, I think oftentimes we're fooling ourselves. But, you know, at the base level, you can often find feel like you can understand you, what's going wrong with the heart and how you, you know you know what might be necessary in order to help it. And sometimes we can help in some things we can't. But that logic of like trying to puzzle out what's going on and then, you know, what are the staff we can take to get things back on track? Um, um, I really loved about cardiology and then seeing it play out in real time, you know, somebody would come in with advanced heart failure and you would re balance their medical therapy and you could see them get better. So that was always incredibly gratifying to may.

spk_1:   17:57
Absolutely, in your experience of choosing cardiology and especially academic cardiology, have there been any challenges that you would specifically relate to being a female on the field? And I

spk_0:   18:07
don't recall any, um, major obstacles getting into the field because of being female. You know, I think that there's still a bit of, ah, um, Old Boys Club. To some extent, it's, you know, it's hard to wrap your hands around. I think it's not, um, you know, people are gonna have the same experience at different institutions. It's hard to generalize about. I do feel like, you know, there is more interest in, um uh, leveling the playing the old from And I think that, you know, hopefully with your generation. And, you know, there's a follow, um, just vice your mass effect. Things will be more more balanced with with a t least half if then sometimes more medical school, um, students being female, I think that, you know, before going, we're gonna have to wait a bit for that wave to hit, but you know, it's gonna look different down the road in it. Then it has historically,

spk_1:   19:13
Yeah, absolutely. It will be interesting to see how that changes, definitely, as our percentages hit the place where we're actually applying fellowships and specialties. Yeah. What was what is one of the greatest joys that you have? I'm doing your field of work.

spk_0:   19:28
Oh, I think that, um, so it's really, um, working with my colleagues. That has been the most satisfying things. You know, you know, colleagues across the board. So, um, my immediate partners and, um uh, and collaborators here, um, at the Brigham are amazing. Um, uh, in my colleagues and collaborators in this larger, you know, in these larger multi center studies that we've been helping Lee, you have also been incredible. You know, end of having this rich pool of, um, students and trainees that comma. Um um, just wow, it's, you know, you know, every year, um, you know, I think have been absolutely the most enjoyable, satisfying parts of my life. Just feeling like I'm surrounded by really smart, really good people who are, you know, you know, or my people like we always think that same things are important were you know in it to win it and to try to figure out what's going on in to try to advance a field. So that's been really pull off a fun.

spk_1:   20:38
Do you think that that very academic, very teen centered environment is really specific to academic medicine and big medical centers? In general, I think

spk_0:   20:49
it's about finding the right fit of people. I've been find a thing about this. Well, I tried very hard to set, you know, a particular tone in the, uh, you know, in the groups that I work with and you can tell me

spk_1:   21:02
how successful it's better not been e have

spk_0:   21:04
a better perspective on this. But, you know, you know, I really tried to foster a very collaborative environment where everybody feels like they're being taken seriously. Everybody feels like they're unimportant, you know. They're contributing importantly to the team on everybody's really invested in trying to an engaged in trying t o get things moving forward rather than, you know, being very top heavy, you know, and not, um, very collaborative for me. It just, you know, fits better with my personality and I think you know what I really love is when people are just really excited about what we're doing. I'm trying to get to drive their excitement.

spk_1:   21:44
I absolutely think that that is the case that cardiovascular genetics at the Brigham just mean in my experience, being with you guys. So, um, I like, for example, the cardiovascular meetings on Mondays and that a new time. I the first time I went to those at first I was just floored that so many brilliant people were all talking at the same time about these really important and interesting topics. I was, like, amazing as listening thing also about you. Actually, as you would have me there would be, what, at least two or three younger people that are my age around student time around the table, and that was so amazing to be invited into that atmosphere and then to actually feel like if I were to speak up or have something to say, You know what? That would be a part of the conversation. I think that collaboration and that team Mark like, really made an impression on me and my interest in academics that to say that that could actually be really, you know, and that we could all share conversations in a way that's not only academically interesting, but that everyone was generally really excited to talk about these topics. I mean, that made a huge, huge impact on me. So I think it's just very important. And that's why I asked you if you thought that that was really particular to these kinds of settings. Because it's something I'm attracted to and my designers for, You know, my career. Yeah, absolutely. I think that,

spk_0:   23:03
you know you will be that type of person to general women are better aback style than men are

spk_1:   23:09
in your experience. Then balancing, I guess quote balance, because I'm not sure that balance is a very good word to use these days because it's quite challenging to define. But in your experience of balancing priorities in your life between family and work in clinical time, how do you set your priorities? Is that something that's very intentional? Or it doesn't just change over time, depending on what you're facing in life? Yeah, I mean, I think it's,

spk_0:   23:33
um you know, for me, you know, being a little bit more fluid has working. I tend to, you know, are, you know, trying to counter act. My tendency is to be a very rigid and locked in. And, you know,

spk_1:   23:45
a person who thinks

spk_0:   23:45
that, you know, just don't feel right, because that was what I was in

spk_1:   23:48
the system. So I think that what actually

spk_0:   23:51
is more successful is realizing, you know, that things were gonna change over time and you have to adapt to the changing times, or else you're gonna be a constant battle. And I think you're totally right. Like balances. Uh, you know, it is, you know, something that we can strive for. And I and

spk_1:   24:09
I think that balance is

spk_0:   24:10
something that we can strive for. Where is having at all, I think is ah, painful and, um, destructive myth. Um, where because you can't have it all. You know, you can't do everything you know. You're only one person. There are only so many hours in a day. And, um, you know, the idea of being able to, like, you know, just, you know, leave no prisoners and every sphere of your life, I think, is something that has made a lot of people really crazy. Um, and I feel terrible about themselves that they somehow aren't achieving. And everybody else is. Well, I think it's just, um it's, um And so I think you're exactly right that you're just trying to define the priorities that are most important to you and, you know, in the different aspects of your life and for your career, um, for your family, for yourself, Um, and then just figure out you know what's gonna take precedence and you know how you're gonna do about no allocate your time. I think that's, um, incredibly tricky, but, you know, just like every so often, just checking in and saying what is really the most important thing to me. Um, and how am I doing on that? And you know, every so often something is gonna have to suffer a little bit. But, you know, as long as it's kind of in line with, um no, your overall feelings about what's important. I think that zinc healthy you have to recognize, you know, you know, things are gonna gonna leap frogging each other and kind of wax and wane in terms of, uh, how much attention you're paying to them. How much you're ignoring them and, you know, but just tryingto, um, keep some kind of, um, equity. Um, Across everything, huh? You know, you can't be something that we can actually feasibly look for and being honest with yourself, I think that's the part of the problem. Like, you know, a lot of times were were driven by, you know, different pressures either by from our mentors or, you know, our parents or our you know, You know what? We've somehow told ourselves that No, this is what is going to make me a an important or successful person. But, you know, sometimes that may not be writing. You know, um, trying to force yourself into a pathway that just doesn't feel right. Dio is, um there's something else. I think that it takes a while to come to terms with you. See,

spk_1:   26:31
Do you think that we can, in a way, in our education promote learning to live that way during medical school in college? Or is that something that really requires, like life, experience and all that? I think, Yeah, I think

spk_0:   26:45
it's a combination. I think that, you know, trying to become a little bit aware of it. But I think you know, um you know, it's hard to predict what what's going to make it happy? What's gonna be important to you down the road? Um, you know, when you don't have, you know, when you're kind of, um, you know, Trailblazer on your own, you know, without, um, um, major relationships in your life. Then it's fine to be just, you know, kind of super focused on your on your academics and on your on your job. And that's okay, you know, you know, that fits a little bit better, but, you know, as things change and his life changes, and as you assess, new and different responsibilities are acquire than it's important to kind of re balance things, you know, and and figure out. You know what you can you know with your with your home life, what you can outsource and outsource as much as you can and, you know, and really save your energy and your time for the things that matter.

spk_1:   27:42
If you had any resource available to you, that would make things just a little bit easier, or that you wish you had, what do you think that would be some people say telling me around doing all sorts

spk_0:   27:57
of, you know, all the busy work, both like a professional busywork and the home busywork would be awesome.

spk_1:   28:06
I know it's just more manpower, right? By your manpower. Exactly. Isn't one

spk_0:   28:11
or you know somebody else that I can say. Ok, take care of all this stuff, you know, that this doesn't need of, you know, physician level attention. Something else. Just take care of it.

spk_1:   28:19
That's a great point. Like anything that could make the flow of the day be simpler, right? Yeah, that's a great point. In terms of challenges or just pivotal moments that you faced in your path. Have there been any that have really needed a big difference in in your story?

spk_0:   28:40
Um, professionally, you know, I think you know, I feel like I've been kind of chugging along relatively, steadily at different speeds. So But, you know, you know, just, you know, with a lot of help and support and guidance, you know, trying thio, no blaze a path. And then, you know, um, it's you know, just you know it. I guess another night I would encourage people to dio This is not actually answering the question. But

spk_1:   29:02
another thing that I would encourage people to D'oh. Which

spk_0:   29:05
I feel like, you know, women are perhaps not as, um, ah, you know, kind of naturally, like, inclined to do. It is the whole networking aspect of of medicine and academics and just kind of getting out there, getting to know the people in your field. But for me, you know, I'm you know, I'm not a party person. I don't like to socialize, You know, I'm not good at small talk, but just, you know, going to meetings, you know, trying to get your research presented and talking to other people has been incredibly, uh, you know, has been incredibly rewarding because I've made a lot of friends like, people have become, like, really good personal friends of establish a lot of collaborations and all, you know, just by kind of, you know, finding your people out in the world because I think that, um, is really important is something that that, you know, I think, um, young women particularly need to kind of, um, you know, push themselves todo me, even if it's me. You know, if this doesn't seem like a lot of fun. Um and, um and you know, just personally, as you know, my husband died a couple of years ago. That has been the whole new, um uh, no. Instead of challenges and Reese setting and time when I just really was able to understand what's important in life eso clearly, um uh you know, I'm just trying to figure out what's going toe What's gonna happen and you know, is one academic base. Um, career, you're gonna be okay. Um, you know, for me and my son and I don't know, it's academics is great for so many reasons, but it's it's nerve racking and that you always have to get some type of funding. Um, and funding is hard to get these days. And you know, just whether that's gonna be the best plan. Um, uh, no, indefinitely. Or if there's other things that you need to consider

spk_1:   31:09
Yeah. Yeah. And that's a whole another element to, um I would say choosing the setting in which you work in, right, like the uncertainty vs 30 And how you will be able to support your choice is in your hands, right? Right. And recognizing

spk_0:   31:27
that nothing's forever, right, you can always try things on. Decide is not for you. Move on. Um uh, Or sometimes things become more clear over time. Or sometimes, you know, life changes, like, you know, you might have a great plan, but, you know, life stars a huge curveball at you, and, you know, again, it's about being able to kind of a dat. I think that is, um, is gonna be the most powerful thing.

spk_1:   31:53
Yeah, absolutely. Adaptability is something that I feel, at least in my experience of medical school as well. Um, I've been learning in great ways, just going to different institutions and like meeting so many different types of physicians and so many different ways of practice, saying, I'm sure it's very important. Throat met like all phases of your medical career. But yeah, is absolutely a part of this part of training, too,

spk_0:   32:18
right? Every so often, I don't know if I don't like, pay attention to the parenting stuff and you know the importance of resilience. And I think that that's something that also was, like, newly appreciated. I don't remember when I was growing up, you know, Are you in the, you know, up until maybe 10 years ago, every hearing, anything about resilience and that, um, you know, I think that resilience and adaptability are kind of hand in hand, right? Like being out here like Thio change and evolve and learn from your mistakes and no identify where there are opportunities are really important. No, no, for both growing up into, um, you know, successful human being and also to, you know, to, uh, fostering a successful career.

spk_1:   33:04
Yeah. How do you think we can contribute to cultivating resilience in, um, I guess in the the school aged human, that's a great question. I wish. I think there's

spk_0:   33:20
any easy answer. Yeah, the backlash against trophies for everybody just for showing up, you know, But really, no, you know, getting you know, your kids and yourself to understand that. You know, sometimes things are a struggle and, you know, um ah. And, uh, hard work is involved, um, for almost everything that's meaningful. And you're trying it. I mean, yeah, but how do we do? How do we like? And Graner said, was that grit? Um, I would love to know, Especially given I have a kid who like the minute something s tough even if wants to drop it.

spk_1:   34:00
We'll do some reading and see if I can find an answer. We will not, but existential questions of life art. Okay, Um uh, what other piece of advice do you have for a woman who's considering her career in medicine? Um, yeah. I don't know

spk_0:   34:19
if there's anything different for men or women, but, you know, just like, yeah, against this idea of, like, tryingto, um, really define your dreams and aspirations over time and, you know, you know, and it's an inter of process. Ah, and because it's really hard to say, Oh, I want to do that when you don't know what that issue. No. That was my issue when, you know, I had no idea that being a position would be like, what it iss uh, there. There's no model for that. When I was growing up, you know, it was a lot of it was very surprising to me, is like, you know, not what I had pictured in my mind. So just remembering that, um, you know, that is a process and requires, um, reexamination, um, and testing. And, um uh, you know, and, uh, you know redefinition.

spk_1:   35:15
Yeah, If you are looking back at your young person deciding to choose medicine, is there anything that you would tell them about what it is like being a physician?

spk_0:   35:24
Um, yeah, there's, you know, just like the amount of tedium. Yeah, Yeah, it's not Very likely. Is it this hard work? Um, you know, a lot of it's hard work. A lot of it is not very rewarding in the moment, but it's kind of trying to keep your eye on the prize, and it's it is a privilege, but it's not for everybody. Um, you know, And you know, I think that being honest with yourself about what you're willing to do or what you're really not willing to do it is really important for anything because, you know, you know, all the people that are gonna be listening to this are really smart and, you know, um and you know, really promising and could probably do anything and be successful. It's It's a matter of figuring out what that might be.

spk_1:   36:06
Absolutely well, thank you so much for coming and for sharing all your thoughts. This is totally been a great conversation, and I know we'll definitely inform the people that are listings. I just really appreciate it.

spk_0:   36:18
Oh, Carrie, you have been, like, you know, a total inspiration to us all.

spk_1:   36:26
Thank you so much, Dr Hofer. Coming to essential wisdom, inspiring future female physicians. What a fun opportunity for us to examine the lifestyle that comes with choosing a highly academic career. I hope that for all the listeners out there, this provided you just another perspective on some of the options that are available to you as a woman in medicine as well as the challenges and really blessings that you will face on this path. So I'm so excited that you all have continued to tune into the end of this season of essential wisdom. I hope that you'll tune in again with us later this week for our final episode of essential Wisdom. It will be a bit about my story as well as a wrap up of all the things that we have been able. Thio learn from these amazing female mentors over this podcast. So thank you for tuning in. Please check out the website. Essential wisdom inspiring physicians dot com.

spk_0:   37:18
See you again next time