Essential Wisdom: Inspiring Future Female Physicians

Jennifer Rockfeld, MD - Internal Medicine

February 04, 2020 Carrie Dubeau Season 1 Episode 13
Essential Wisdom: Inspiring Future Female Physicians
Jennifer Rockfeld, MD - Internal Medicine
Chapters
Essential Wisdom: Inspiring Future Female Physicians
Jennifer Rockfeld, MD - Internal Medicine
Feb 04, 2020 Season 1 Episode 13
Carrie Dubeau

Help me welcome Dr. Jennifer Rockfeld. Dr. Rockfeld practices Internal Medicine in Guilford, Connecticut at Northeast Medical Group. She is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medical Sciences at Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine, where she serves as Assistant Course Director of Clinical Arts and Sciences. In doing so she participates in continued development of the clinical skills course, acts as a clinical-skills preceptor, and teaches in the Medical Student Home program, welcoming first and second year medical students to her outpatient office each week. She earned her MD at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and completed her residency and chief residency in Internal Medicine at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. Dr. Rockfeld is interested in medical education, the practice of lifestyle medicine, and physician well-being. 

Show Notes Transcript

Help me welcome Dr. Jennifer Rockfeld. Dr. Rockfeld practices Internal Medicine in Guilford, Connecticut at Northeast Medical Group. She is an Assistant Professor in the Department of Medical Sciences at Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine, where she serves as Assistant Course Director of Clinical Arts and Sciences. In doing so she participates in continued development of the clinical skills course, acts as a clinical-skills preceptor, and teaches in the Medical Student Home program, welcoming first and second year medical students to her outpatient office each week. She earned her MD at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and completed her residency and chief residency in Internal Medicine at Mount Sinai School of Medicine. Dr. Rockfeld is interested in medical education, the practice of lifestyle medicine, and physician well-being. 

spk_0:   0:05
welcome to essential wisdom. Inspiring future female physicians. A podcast for engaging and informing the next generation of women in medicine. My name is carried a bow. I'm 1/4 year medical student at the Frank H. Netter, MD. School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University. Essential Wisdom is a podcast for discussing the joys and the challenges off being a woman in medicine through the sharing of stories and advice by women who mentor us. Take a seat with me at the desk of the mentors. Come along, tow, walk the holes of the hospitals to experience residency and life as a physician personally, as we get to know these phenomenal physicians and scientists. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to essential wisdom inspiring future female physicians. Thanks for joining us again this week. Help me Welcome. Dr Jennifer Rock Felt Dr Rock Felt Practices internal medicine in Guilford, Connecticut, at Northeast Medical Group. She's an assistant professor in the Department of Medical Sciences at Frank H. Netter, MD. School of Medicine, where she serves as assistant course director of clinical arts and sciences. In doing so, she participates in continued development of the clinical skills course, acts as a clinical skills precept er and teaches in the Medical Student Home program. Welcoming first and second year medical students to her outpatient office each week, Dr Rock Felt earned her MD at Albert Einstein College of Medicine and completed her residency and chief residency. An internal medicine at Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Dr Rock Felt is interested in medical education, the practice of lifestyle, medicine and physician wellbeing. Dr. Rock felt thank you so much for being here to join us. Welcome to essential wisdom. Thank you, Carrie. So the way that I like to begin our conversation is to ask you to tell us about your path to becoming a female physician. Sure.

spk_1:   2:09
So I knew I wanted to be a physician from from a young age. I didn't have any physicians in my family, but I was always interested in science, and I was very curious about how things worked, specifically the human body and how it were. So I went to college at Cornell University in the hopes of pursuing medicine, but also interested in medical journalism and perhaps writing about medicine. So I decided to pursue a communications major which at that time it was very difficult for me to be a communications nature and actually complete my premed requirements as well. So they advised me to switch to something more in line with medicine, and I switched to something called human Biology. Health in society, which is typical of Cornell. We have these long names for our majors, but basically it was a combination of it was in the division of nutrition. So we learned about nutrition, psychology and a lot of components of human health, as opposed to just the science. And I loved it. It was that was really my perspective to take a holistic approach to medicine. Um, and when I left undergrad, I decided to take some time off. I already taken my M cats. I was all set to apply, but I wanted to work for a few years, and I ended up in a wonderful job at N Y. U. Being the residency program coordinator for their primary care residency. And that was when I learned a lot about being a primary care doctor and the bio psycho social model of medicine and really fell in love with it. And I think it helped lead me to my path down the line to become a primary care doctor. And afterwards I decided to go to medical school. I went to Albert Einstein College of Medicine. I liked their philosophy. I thought they were primary care oriented and they had an older student body, which I appreciated. And then when I just decided to do residency, I actually thought I wanted Togut I at that time, and I wanted to really focus on nutrition. Um, and I applied to and got accepted to the months I matched at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine, which was a wonderful internal medicine and also had an exceptional G I program. So I was very happy to go there for my training. So, um, I had a wonderful, wonderful training at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine. I remained in New York City. I loved being in New York City. I got exposure to a date for multiple hospitals. I got to work in one of the public hospitals. I got to work in a A and then I got to work at the Mount Sinai Hospital, which was sort of a tertiary care hospital. Um, and during that time there, I still loved G I. And it was very interested in it. And up until my third year, when I realized that a lot of things I liked about medicine weren't necessarily compatible with the practice of G. I, um, I loved my longitudinal relationships with patients, which was really primary care focused, and you didn't always have that in G. I. I really loved medical education, and I found that most people, my role models in medical education, were internists. Um, and I also at that point decided it wasn't sure if pursuing another three years of training would be compatible with what I wanted from from my life in general. So I decided to pursue primary care instead. And I've been very happy with that decision since

spk_0:   5:16
when you were studying in college and taking a holistic approach to looking at health care. Do you think that that laid the foundation for where you would go with your interest in prevention?

spk_1:   5:30
Yes, definitely. And I think that it was hard for me to understand that at the time what I perceived to be a physician and to practice medicine, um, probably was not fully compatible with how most of medicine is practiced. I really felt like I would have this a lot of time with my patients and get to explore the relationship and really get in understanding of how their health was affecting their life and work with them in order to choose, you know, make better lifestyle choices. And when I went into medicine initially, that wasn't really how it felt. Um, and I've had to in the time since then, sort of shaped my career the way that I wanted it to be. And I feel as if now I have that kind of practice that I would like, Um, that works and I get to treat patients in the way I want to treat them. But I don't think that's always the way that you get to do it. Unfortunately, in today's practice of medicine,

spk_0:   6:21
yeah, absolutely. I think it's really unique that you took that time in between and had exposure to primary care and the setting of being the program director, and y you could you talk a little bit about what your exposure was like a the time. Sure,

spk_1:   6:35
so that was the progress. So that was the program coordinator. So I've started Thank you. Okay. So I actually, strangely enough, I didn't return to N Y u after I finished residency and I was an assistant program director for the Internal Medicine Residency program. So I went back to that roots. But in the that point, right after college, I was an administrator. I was, you know, in a secretarial position, and I just fell into it. It was really a wonderful chance that I fell into that position because they had had a secretary for 30 ish years, a very long time. And she was retiring, and they decided to fill that position with people who wanted to go into medicine. Young, motivated individuals who would bring something new to the position and change over every few years they anticipated that. So I entered the the position with them, knowing that I was gonna leave in a few years to go to medical school. And, um, I got to meet some wonderful primary care doctors. Um, I got to work with them on projects that I found really exciting. I interacted with the residents and got a sense of what a primary care residency looked like. And it just was overall of really transformative experience for me that I hadn't expected.

spk_0:   7:46
Well, now we're your mentors and people you interacted with at the time. What was it? A mixture of men and women? Was it skewed to one direction?

spk_1:   7:55
It was a mixture of men and women. Primary care does tend to attract a lot of women. The two program directors at that time, the main program director, was a male who is really a giant in the field of primary care. And then the other program director was a woman. And then I worked a lot with another woman who actually, interestingly enough, we recently just submitted a publication about female physicians. Career satisfaction. So this is a mentor that I've had since I graduated college that I still continue to work with. And

spk_0:   8:25
we just submitted a publication together. Wow, that's that's an amazing relationship to have had the opportunity to maintain.

spk_1:   8:34
And I think that finding a mentor and what a what a real mentor can do for you is underappreciated. I think we get confused with what's an adviser and what's a mentor and really finding someone that you maintain that relationship with throughout your career. I just actually talked on the phone last week, toe one of my mentors from residency who I haven't spoken to, probably in four years. And we set up our long phone conversation to touch base and that relationships is still there. Even though we haven't talked for a while, she's still ableto help mentor me in my career. So if those air invaluable to find role models that Andi do think female role models are important to have, especially once you have a career that you could see yourself taking and figuring out how they got there

spk_0:   9:20
MMM, absolutely somebody to emulate and maintain their relationship with. It's so important, and I was recently talking to someone about the idea that a mentorship needs to be very personal, and I think that's exactly what you're touching on. You know, somebody that knows you and understands what you're going through.

spk_1:   9:36
Yeah, and we've undone, as from, from my perspective now is faculty. You're always trying to connect people with advisers somebody you know, and you make that connection. But that's not a mentor mentor. Someone that you really find is the right fit for you. Um, and there's a really specific relationship. And I've had mentors, career mentors. I've had, you know, research mentors. There's all different kinds of mentors. You could help you get to where you today. And I think that mentors are imported in any point

spk_0:   10:02
in your career. Absolutely thank you. In terms of how you chose primary care, I think we kind of have, ah, a good basis for that. But I'm curious. If you were interested in practicing that type of medicine when you were younger, was this something that existed for us as a child, as a teenager or digital start going down this path in college?

spk_1:   10:24
So I always like going to the doctor is a kid. I loved my pediatrician, my mom said. I usedto watch when I got the shots, and I was so fascinated by it. I I And then I did some shadowing during high school in health fields and during college I did a lot of shadowing. I don't think primary care was ever on my radar. I was really interested in human behavior. So at first I thought, maybe psychology or psychiatry, and then I started looking at neurology, thinking that was the right fit and none of it really fit. And I don't think primary care, um came to the forefront until later on more and Met Morn called Sort of the end of College and then really being solidified with my experience head

spk_0:   11:08
and while you in the administrative role. Okay, So interesting. I love to hear a little bit about everybody's longitudinal story. They're just so different, but also so similar at the same time about this. This curiosity of seeking to understand and personal science because of it, Yes, yes, in terms of your experience now, as a as a female in primary care, what would you say is one of the greatest reward that you have?

spk_1:   11:38
I think, um, the relationships and the stories I get to hear I feel privileged every day that people tell me such intimate details of their lives when they first meet May and I just that they trust me and they confide in me and I'm able to play that role in their lives. And I really think that's a tremendous privilege. And I really tried in my practice that I have now to focus on that and to really ask people important questions about their sources of stress. And you know their day to day and how they sleep in their relationships and connections with people. Because for me to understand, that helps me treat them better and helps me get them to where they need to be with their health. So that's to me one of the greatest joys of practicing medicine.

spk_0:   12:24
Do you think that any of that is impacted by being female? Is it easier to have those conversations? Are people more open with you or not so much?

spk_1:   12:32
I think a lot of people seek out a female primary care doctor, mostly other women, and I d'oh. You know, I I think that a lot of it's impacted by the fact that I have more time with my patients. Now. I think time is always really important, so I might use my schedule. Now I have more time with my patients, but I do think, um, being female, you know, people may open up to me more. I did have ah, elderly gentleman say to me recently that he always thought male doctors were better until he met me. And now I've changed. His mom and

spk_0:   13:05
I are so nice. That's great on the flip side of that equation. Is there a specific challenge? But you feel that you faced being a woman in medicine?

spk_1:   13:21
Um, I d'oh. You know, I do think during my training I felt like I had the same opportunities, and I really appreciated that. But I did go into internal medicine that has a large predominance of women. Um, you know, I know in other fields like surgery when there are fewer women, it might not feel that way. Um, I I always struggle with as a woman balance and we'll talk. I know more about that later on. I do think the balance issue tends to it if I am in a relationship with another physician. So I have a two physician family, and I do think that I struggle with it more than he does. And there's multiple reasons to explain that. But in terms of balancing, taking care of our home life and taking and and being present at work and being ableto to manage all the work and not have it overflow into my time with my family, so I think that's been that's made it difficult for me to try to find that balance, and I don't know if that's specifically about being female, but I do know that's that's my personal story.

spk_0:   14:21
Yeah. Would you talk a little bit about how you have sought to find that fountain? Find that Allen's?

spk_1:   14:28
Yes, The constant struggle. Yes, E. So I've always thought that there is no balance. So I've decided that, you know, at some times in your life, you're you're shifting towards one end and your career is sort of weighing more heavily, and other times in the life, your life, your family's laying were heavily, and you sort of have to make that scale go back and forth. But I've never had it that they're just sort of even. And I'm being able to be completely balanced. Um, and I I think that I've, um I had to make choices to figure out howto make that balance, and sometimes it comes at a sacrifice in terms of my ambition of really where I want to end up. But I know that eventually I'll get there, even if now you know, my family weighs heavier because my kids are younger and it was a little It's a little later now than when they were really young and they were home all the time. So I'm just trying to to figure that out. I think getting help in any way possible from family and friends and paid baby sitters has been trust people you trust to help you out has been really huge for May, and that's been one of the the things that I've had to lead on the most. Is is having people help you out of not being afraid to ask for help when you need it and feeling comfortable with having other people, be part of your life and be part of your Children's life and your family's life. And that's become a really wonderful part of my kids growing up that they've been exposed to a lot of people. So I appreciate it now. Whereas I think earlier I thought I had to do it all by myself.

spk_0:   16:00
Mmm, that's really interesting. Um, it this is Theis has come up like this. Exact is exact topic, actually. And another conversation that I had the idea of seeking help where you can find it. And, um, it is so important. And I just wonder for women that are looking forward at planning whether it's a family or, you know, a full life, a full life in addition to being a physician, Would you recommend then being in a position where you're close to family or close to friends and and how do you can shape your like around that? Yeah.

spk_1:   16:38
So when I so I had my So, um, I also didn't mention, But, you know, the other part of the balance that had that fallen out at some point was sort of bouncing my relationship and myself and my needs, you know, with the family and with the career. And there's so many you wish you had more time there, so many needs. But when I first had my my older daughter, I was a chief resident and we lived in New York City and we were both residents. And we assume as I found out I was pregnant, I signed up to be a TTE the Mount Sinai daycare. And so I signed up before even told anyone that I was pregnant and I got a call and she was two years old that I got off the wait list s so that wasn't that never ended up being an option on we could really Oh, find unavailable daycare. So at that point, we didn't know what to do. And we want to take we We hired a nanny, but we couldn't afford to pay an anti full time, so I actually I had to have my father, who lived about 40 minutes away outside of the city, come in and watch my daughter two days a week so she would come in and sleep on our couch and watch my daughter two days in a row. And then I'd have a baby sitter the other three days, and it was really hard. It was hard on him. It was hard on us because we were running home to be home in a certain time. And we did that for six months, and I am so thankful and grateful to him that he did it. But he did get back surgery as soon as it was over. So, um, it made me realize, you know, at that point, we we couldn't afford to do anything else, and it was so, so, so beneficial to have my father nearby were lucky enough now that we're practicing that we could afford to pay for childcare. So I still have to This I've had consistently nannies that helped me out, and I don't have any family around me where we live now. So it's just us like a for my nanny took it, and I'm blessed to have a wonderful nanny who cares about my kids and loves them and has become a part of our family. But that hasn't always been the case. We've had a string of people that it didn't work out with, so it's always been a bit of a tenuous balance. But it, you know, you just keep on pushing through and finding something that works for you.

spk_0:   18:43
So this is not something that's actually in my set of questions. I usually ask, but really goes along with this in terms of balancing and not balancing. But managing a family and your work is doing a part time career, something that you ever considered or that people in primary care really do.

spk_1:   18:59
Yeah, so a lot of people and primary care to do a part time career, especially when they're starting out just to get that balance and and that is possible So When I left New York City and moved here and switched jobs, I actually did go down from five days a week to four days a week. So that's been tremendously, tremendously beneficial for my life and for my family. I have Fridays that are do tend to catch up on a lot of work during that time, but it's my time, and I could do work on my own schedule. But I could also go food shopping I could exercise, which is something that got neglect for awhile. So that has been a huge, huge benefit for my life to to go down to four days a week. That being said, I think in any other career the number of hours I work would be considered full of time. But still, for me, it still it still feels protected that I'm able to have that day.

spk_0:   19:54
Okay. Okay. Do you know people that went part time from your life?

spk_1:   19:59
Yes, I d'oh, um, that being said that caveat is is is loan burden and especially for primary care, you know, it's it's very I had a huge, huge loan burden. I did five years in medical school, waited a year. And even though that year you don't have to pay tuition, you still have to take out loans to pay for life and pay for rent and food and everything else. So between my husband and myself, we we have a really high loan burden. Glad I think it's the biggest gavea. And I think my friends who have gone part time in medicine there have somebody in the family who's able to pay back the loans or didn't didn't have that kind of loan burden.

spk_0:   20:38
Yeah, I'm sure that that's gonna become an even more of an increasing issue over the next decade, huh? Burn Those of us who were coming out. Susan, um, I know that the converted this price. Oh, yeah, I can appreciate that. So then in terms of your interest in, um, like both position wellness and preventative medicine, So whole patient wellness. Can you talk about how your experiences have informs that interest And then what you do in your practice about those things?

spk_1:   21:11
Sure. So, um, I in terms of my experiences, I don't know how that I think that was always my interest. You know, when I went into medicine to begin with. I just couldn't put a name to it, and there wasn't probably a name to it back then. His lifestyle medicine is a relatively new field. Yeah, and so I, um, I used to practice both inpatient and outpatient, and my training was predominantly impatient. And even though I love impatient medicine, it's not. That's not the focus, you know. The focus is getting someone people who are very coolly ill and getting them well enough to send them out to their primary care care doctor toe do the rest of the work. So the shift to outpatient medicine felt like a very big shift to me, and I had to learn what felt like a pretty big new field. And I've tried to practice, um, lifestyle medicine by really focusing on my nutrition background. So I had nutrition. It was in the ahead, nutrition in my major at college and taking additional classes where I can and goingto lifestyle medicine conferences where I can, and then also here on campus, along with you and some other students, you know, working on lifestyle medicine here and trying to build up a curriculum to helps students at a beginning of their careers. Think about treating people as a whole person and thinking about all the behavioral choices that contribute to their health and well being and how to work with them to make better choices. So we teach students that starting in first year and that, um and hopefully they'll take that into their practices and continue that when they become physicians, whatever kind of physician they choose to go to bay.

spk_0:   22:50
Yeah, Yeah, I love that. And I mean, this is something that I enjoy talking about as well. So, um, I know I feel that it's been a part of our curriculum. I hold that it becomes integrated into other curriculum curricula across the country have medical schools as well. I agree. What is one of the most effective habits that you follow each day, wouldn't you say

spk_1:   23:16
so? I'll tell you about a habit I've been doing for a while and something I'm trying to cultivate, so e I get home from work. I usually leave for work early in the morning. Um, I have a baby sitter who comes and takes the kids to school, and then I usually get home from work around six o'clock and my kids tend to go to bed between eight and 8 30 So we really have that, you know, 2 to 2 and 1/2 hours with them at the end of the day, and that's their cranky time. I'm coming home at the right time where they're going to melt down. So my try very hard to do unless I'm on call is put my phone away so I don't take it out of my work bag. When I get home, I hang up my work bag. I come into my house and change immediately out of my work clothes into comfortable clothes. And I'm just with the kids for that short period of time that I have with them during the day. And I think that's a good model. Um, I don't get to eat with them, unfortunately used to try to get them to wheat so that I could eat with them and we could all eat dinner together as a family. But they're too hungry at that time, so they tend to eat earlier. But we do eat as a family together on the weekend, so you know, having a family to get dinner together on Friday night is important to us and talking about our weak and making sure we all reconnect at that time and then on the weekends, I tend to really focus on my kids. So when I'm with them, I'm with them. I really try not to multi task. It's hard at times, but I try to put give them my full attention when I'm with them. Um, my new habit that I've been trying to cultivate now for a couple of months is giving myself some time in the morning. So trying to wake up just 1/2 an hour earlier in the morning toe have some time to do a brief meditation before the kids wake up. To maybe do some stretching just to have a little bit of time for myself before the day starts. And, um, it's it's a work in progress. So that's that's my new daily habit. I'm trying to cultivate.

spk_0:   25:04
That's awesome. Yeah, the morning hours are so important if you can utilize them. But, man, it's a hard adjustment. Yes,

spk_1:   25:10
yes, and I like my eight hours of sleep, so I have to go to bed a little bit earlier. That's great. So when I was working in New York, my husband and I both worked late on Tuesday nights. We had a good evening clinic, so I would get home pretty late. The kids would be in bed or baby sitter would put the kids to bed. But when we moved here, we decided because of how our legs had been then and we really didn't have any time for ourselves or us as a couple to keep the Tuesday night as a late night and continue to help my baby sitter. When we first moved here, we actually brought our baby sitter with us, and we had the same baby sitter as we transition to keep the Tuesday night. So she continued to work late on Tuesday night, and my husband and I met at the gym after work we worked out and then we would have a bite to eat afterwards. So that and we've pretty much kept that up, and that's been really, really, tremendously important for us to have time for ourselves and for us as a couple. And I think that's something that tends to get neglected in the rush of career and kids and family that you know you also need. You timeto work on developing healthy habits and also to connect with your

spk_0:   26:18
partner. That's awesome. Wow, I love that advice. Autumn then, in terms of how we can cultivate the balanced habits, like, say, in college or medical school, Do you think that the best way to do that is just to begin practicing things like making time in the morning Or, um, you know, working on those aspects of your lifestyle early.

spk_1:   26:42
I think it's so hard, and I can't say that I was able to do it. Then I felt during most of my training and medical school and residency, especially that I had no control over my time that, you know, things were dictated and I had to sort of follow this rigid schedule and these long hours, and I really felt a loss of control. And that was hard for me, too, because I couldn't find time to eat healthy or which has always been really a huge priority for May um, where I couldn't find timeto exercise, and I wasn't getting enough sleep and all of those things that were important for May. We're sort of falling by the wayside. So yes, I That's part of the reason that I do. Try toe, cultivate this in the students now and tell them to start early and just tell him that it's important to develop these habits because it's it's if you lose them, your you know your wellbeing goes away. And that's why we have such high burnout in medical school and residency because people don't know how to incorporate these habits into to our profession. So I think that would be great to do that early. I But I can't say that I did that.

spk_0:   27:50
Yeah, as students look at their say, 30 year start to understand, I mean just a small pigment or figment of be kind, feeling off lack of control because I can definitely agreed it up at least in 30. Or you start to feel that way because you're following a schedule and you have to complete X number of things before you can leave. And all these things I'm just very different from the setting of being a student. You know where you're sitting in the classroom. I wonder. I wonder if it would be interesting. Thio No, not like study But I would certainly be interesting to talk to medical students about how to adapt the mindset early on in the training, because you kind of have to I feel like at some point start to give up some of that lack of control and and then take it to control the things that you can.

spk_1:   28:39
Uh huh. Yeah, and I think that it nobody's gonna give you the time to take care of yourself. Unfortunately, you know, the only person who can set that time is you. And you know, if the extra hour of studying is gonna be more helpful or an hour of doing something that, you know, feed your body or future soul is more helpful, I would choose the latter. But I think it's hard to see that in the moment. Um and I Do you think Yeah, I I do think that you feel like you're in this rat race and you got to keep up and you feel it. That's all the time And that imposter syndrome. And I'm not doing enough or I'm not good enough for I'm not smart enough. And I got to keep up, and I one piece of advice, I would say is that you know, slow down if you can, you know, there's you're gonna It's a really, really long journey, so rushing through it is not helping you. I took an extra year in medical school. I did a chief here, a drink, an extra year of residency. I took time in between college and med school, and I'm still where I need to be. So I think rushing it wouldn't have helped me. I think even slowing it down Mawr in certain ways would have helped make. But, um, e think when you're faced with a period where you feel like I can't go on and I and I don't know what to do and I'm in a bad place right now. Pushing through is not the answer, you know, slowing down and really think figuring out how to get to where you need to get to in the best way possible is the answer. But I don't think many of us choose it, especially in this profession.

spk_0:   30:07
You said, um, running a route race, you know, seeing your whether you're good enough and how you're performing as a reflection of your attendance and your performance and your evaluations and stuff. I wonder if you have thoughts on, um, like medical school student mental well being and how you separate your personal or perfect personal and professional like value. You like who you are as an individual versus how you are performing and achieving as a student.

spk_1:   30:40
Yeah, I remember. I remember calling my best friend from medical school one day on the way home from a really bad day during intern year. And I called her and I was going on and on about It was a terrible day and I I don't remember if I made a Maybe I made a small mistake, and it just was not a good day for May. And I remember she said, Jenner you, um are you not the top? Are you not the best in your in your entering class that I was like like No, no, I'm not. And she's like, Well, welcome to the real world. Like Like she's like thought, you know, you're not gonna be at the top anymore, where in this group of people who are super achievers and you're just not gonna be the top anymore, and you've got to get used to better else. We're gonna beat yourself up all the time. And that was really a wake up call for May. You know that, and it happens. You know, you get tau med school and you're all of a sudden with some incredible people and you've excelled your whole life, and you're just sort of middle of the road all of a sudden, or even founding in some ways, and that's really hard to wrap your head around. But I and, um, I think it could take a huge toll on someone, self confidence and someone sense of worth. And, you know, I don't know. I think talking to people who care about you know, you, you know, sharing that is really important or even sharing that with colleagues, because I think we realize that everyone feels that way. Once we talk to people, everyone feels that way like theirs. I don't think there's anyone in med school who says like I'm chasing this, I'm maybe, but I didn't need them, you know? So I think just, um, failure is sharing, you know, cheering on other people's success is feeling happy for them developing those connections and being kind to yourself and self talk and not beating yourself up and once again going back to doing things that that nurture you, which we tend to give up, which help us, you know, reading our sense of self

spk_0:   32:26
worth, so important. And I'm sure plays a role like you're saying when you were an intern and throughout medical school. Throughout this whole training, I'm sure that that plays a very important role for young women who are preparing for their career in medicine. What piece of advice would you have to offer?

spk_1:   32:46
I think that medicine is such a tremendous career that encompasses so many different things. So I think you could do so much with an MD, and I think that's underappreciated. I think my husband, he is a specialized surgeon. His day to day looks completely different from my day today. I mean, the fact that we both are doctors is the only thing that ties that together because we have. We do very, very different things during the course of our day. Um, there's research, there's medical education, there's administrative work, so I think just being open to the fact that you are practice of medicine may look different from, you know, doing seeing patients every day, Um, and thinking about what you really like. And when you're going through things, what degree to you and what gives you joy and energy and focusing on those and trying to cultivate those in your life and thinking about what drains you and what's you know, not doesn't feel like a good fit and maybe not doing us much of that, because I do think there's a lot of roads you can take, and the only one the only one who knows which is the right road for you would be you. So to pay attention to that when you hear that little voice inside your head saying this doesn't feel like a good fit or this feels like a great fit, but I don't know how to make it work and then look for people who made it work and ask them how they did it. And that's, you know, try to go in

spk_0:   34:02
that direction. Well, thank you, Dr Rock found for sharing that great advice for sharing your thoughts on being a woman in medicine and how to really build your career. I just really appreciate our conversation and you coming on the show.

spk_1:   34:14
No, thank you. Carry for having me and for doing this.

spk_0:   34:16
Thank you again, Dr Rock felt for coming to essential wisdom inspiring future female physicians. This episode was so chock full of advice, I hope that everybody has a no pad or something to write down the thoughts that Doctor Rockwell had to share. I am so thrilled that you have continued to tune in with me to join me on this journey with these amazing women. And I hope that you'll head online to our website at essential wisdom, inspiring physicians dot com to read a little bit more about them. We'll see you again on Thursday, later this week and for our last two episodes next week. Have a great week. Everyone talk to you soon.